Of course the founders were NOT religious or anything, but.........
"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."
-- James Madison (A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785)
13 comments:
Ok, so James Madison believed in a Creator. What's your point? He also believed in the separation of church and state.
"religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"
My point is that the founders were religious.
I don't think either one of them are "pure". I also think the freedom to worship or not worship is different making it against the law to have the ten commandments in your office.
I don't believe it is against the law to have the 10 commandments in your office. They are in the Bible and if you want to bring a Bible to work to read during your lunch break, go for it and I and the ACLU will defend your right to do so.
Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained
without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national
morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
George Washington
Jefferson said that before the ACLU or NAMBLA existed.
Donsky, where do our morals come from? I didn't say i couldn't do it, but i don't have the same faith in you.
Patrick Henry
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations."
Did you quote Franklin? Me too
Benjamin Franklin Address at the Constitutional Convention Thursday June 28, 1787
"I have lived, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?
OK, so what have we learned? Many of the Founders were Deists who believed in a Creator, who they saw as the source of morality. They generally regarded Christianty as a superstition, and were suspicious of organized religion and the clergy. Accordingly, they believed in a separation of Church and State.
Oh Adams too?
President John Adams
"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
Whats your point Donsky? That if a man questions his faith, then he no longer believes in God or religion? Any man of intelligence ought to be skeptical of the unknown, which by definiton is faith. It doesnt make them hypocrites nor does it make them pagans.(Ok maybe Benny F was a bit of a heathen) it makes them human.
The establishment clause does not stipulate the eradication of all religion or relgious symbolism from government, that much is clear from the very government our founding fathers put in place and the symbolism integrated into said gov't.
There can be no interpretation..they intended to prevent an offial state sanction religion in the Church of England mold, which made all others illegal. They were successful. We have freedom of religion, all religion in this country...even including Christianity.
(although Im still petitioning for recognition of the Jedi faith)
And as for Tommy Jefferson....
President Thomas Jefferson
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."
The thing is, they didn't want a "national religion", and neither do i, but i find it hard to believe they thought there should be NO reference to religion EVER in public. Which is the bullshit that the ACLU tries to push, and apparently you guys believe.
The Founders, including John Adams, believed in the moral principles of Christianity put forth in the Sermon on the Mount, and ignored by most "Christians." They tended to believe that such doctrines as the Virgin Birth, etc. were fables.
No one says there should be no references to religion in public. Most Presidents have regularly made reference to God, and speak of their faith, at times even sincerely.
I do not believe that the Government, on any level, should advocate any religion or religious belief. So NO I do not want prayers in the public schools, or a monument to the 10 commandments on the White House lawn.
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