I wonder how anyone who claims to be American or to love their country could support such a group as the aclu? They have done more to hurt our great nation than any other organization that has ever existed.
Legal Tyranny: Always taking the side of America's enemies, the radical lawyers of the ACLU have their tentacles everywhere. If Americans let them, they'll destroy our moral fabric and make us vulnerable to terrorists.
The most indefensible acts of the American Civil Liberties Union are widely known — like its defending the North American Man-Boy Love Association against a $200 million civil lawsuit or its yearning for male homosexual scoutmasters.
Its more outlandish positions are infamous — like contending that the distribution of child porn, once produced, is protected by the Constitution, while metal detectors that catch terrorists are unconstitutional. But too few Americans realize how far and wide this dangerous organization's misdeeds reach.
Most notoriously, a left-leaning federal judge in Detroit who serves on the board of a foundation that gave $45,000 to the state chapter of the ACLU gave the group its way last month and ruled against the National Security Agency's program tracking suspected terrorist communications, an opinion sure to be overruled.
Here's an incomplete list of other recent ACLU activity: HERE
25 comments:
I agree with Donsky. I do not always agree with the ACLU but, on the whole, they are on the front lines in protecting our freedoms. Yes, they are going to court against laws that would prohibit groups protesting at military funerals. I despise the people who are protesting at these funerals but how the hell is that not freedom of speech?
Well i'll keep an open mind then guys. Please tell me all the good things this great organization has done?
Of course you don't ALWAYS agree with EVERYTHING that they do or stand for, but please give me an example or 2 of the things they've done that you do agree with. Not the things they SAY they stand for, because anyone can SAY they stand for things, but ACTIONS speak louder than words. So what have they DONE to make America better.
I've listed some of the things they've done or are currently doing to make the country worse, and you guys agree i'm sure that nambla and protesting at funerals is bad, but please tell me what they've done that's good.
Donsky: the true voice of reason at The Aurora.
Protesting at funerals is bad--defending the right to protest at funerals is good.
The ACLU has obtained a number of documents over the last few years documenting the infiltration of and spying on domestic peace groups.I know you don't like peace and other leftist groups but protecting their constitutional rights is a good thing.
The ACLU has also been in the front lines in defending the separation of church and state.
Well gary, i can't really comment on your conspiracy theories about "peace organizations" except to say that ANY anti-American organization is a friend of the aclu. So if there was any documents etc. i'm sure they helped.
I can comment on the fact that there is NO SUCH THING AS SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. and in any case they don't care about it. They only care about hurting the traditional religions. They rail against the pledge of allegiance because it mentions God, but they say NOTHING about students learning all about Islam in our public schools. This is well documented, and i can give you specific examples if you would like. Still, i would like some SPECIFIC examples of things they have done that have been good for the country.
Well thats the problem. There is no such thing as separation of church and state. Their propoganda machine has re-written the Constitution time and time again...and that is the real danger. What they are trying to accomplish is the complete removal of any and all religious aspects in our society and the destruction of individual accountability for immorality.
I gave you some specific examples--you just don't agree with me.
On church and state: you right-wingers always talk about the "original intent" of the founders. One of the most prominent founders was Thomas Jefferson, as I'm sure you would agree. He wrote of the "wall of separation" between church and state. Does that not show his intent?
Notice that there is NO mention of God in the Constitution. Do you think this was just an oversight? It did not go unnoticed at the time, and critics of the new constitution denounced it as "Godless." They were right in that, at least.
There are people in this country who want to establish "biblical law" in America. That is why we need the separation of church and state, and why we need the ACLU.
Specific examples of GOOD things gary. Again, if there was any spying of "peace" groups and they "helped get documents" that's great, but very vague.
Thomas Jefferson wrote over 20,000 letters in his life, and in many of them he mentions GOD, he was sworn in with his hand on THE BIBLE. He was present at congress when they started their day with a PRAYER, which by the way they still do.
In 1 letter of the 20,000 he mentions the "wall". The letter was intended to reassure the recipients that they would be allowed to worship in their own way and that no specific religion would be forced upon them. The aclu has used this one small line in the letter to create the seperation myth. And by the way, he wasn't the ONLY founding father.
The original draft of the constitution did mention God, but Ben Franklin suggested removing the reference because many people at the time had fled from England to be allowed to worship how they wanted. That is why the constitution promises a freedom OF religion, not a freedom from seeing a ten commandments plaque in a public park.
Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists, explaining the decision to separate state and religion:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
James Madison, principal author of the constitution:
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State." (1819).
I believe in freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. Put the ten commandments in your home or church. Keep the government out of religion.
I could go back and forth on this subject all day, but the intent of the framers wasn't to abolish all signs of religion in the public square. I know this because they didn't do it themselves, and in fact they purposely INCLUDED references to the almighty in thousands of instances.
Also, the aclu is so obviously anti-christian and not anti church state. the evidence is in the fact that they fight AGAINST tax exempt status for christian churches but have battled FOR tax exempt status for wiccans. Also, they sued to have a tiny cross removed from a state flag (i forget which state) but didn't say a thing about a "sun god" on the same flag. Clearly they have an agenda and it has nothing to do with the bill of rights. once again i ask you what have they done that has been good for this country?
I would imagine that the ACLU's position is that they are against tax exemption for churches, but if the government is going to do it they have to apply it consistently to all religions.
What has the ACLU done for this country? They have protected our rights and our liberties under the constitution.
well, you can "imagine" whatever you want, but the truth is that there are hundreds of examples of their religous hypocrisy including the flag one that i mentioned and you didn't address.
"They have protected our rights and our liberties under the constitution"
For example???
I don't expect you to be an expert gary, and i don't expect you to be able to come up with multiple examples of the great works that they do, but the fact is that i'm not an expert on the group but i could give you at least 10 things probably off the top of my head that you, donsky, me, donkey and maybe even anita would agree are NOT good for this country. And that would be WITHOUT including the seperation argument.
So please give me an example or two that you know of, or google it or something and tell me what good they have done.
Here's one:
"The American Civil Liberties Union of Hawaii announced today that it has filed a motion in criminal court on behalf of two advocates for the homeless arrested for trespassing while peacefully protesting on the grounds of Honolulu City Hall. The ACLU is asking the court to dismiss the case on the grounds that the protesters were unlawfully arrested while exercising their constitutional rights to assemble and protest."
I could probably come up with 100 more, if I had the time.
So they filed a lawsuit on behalf of a couple of homeless dudes? I could come up with a few THOUSAND lawsuits that were filed TODAY. This is an organization that was founded in the early part of the century and all you got is a little lawsuit in hawaii? I mean do we know the local laws? did they need a permit? were they naked? were they drunk? did they assault anyone? That's weak gary. I'm assuming you're at work, so i'll let it slide, but please give me something better than that.
Like for example they also filed a bunch of lawsuits on behalf of CHILD PORNOGRAPHERS, and they WON! Plus they did it with OUR TAX MONEY. You see i'm sure that we all agree that child pornography is bad for our country, and i'm sure we don't want our tax money to be spent on defending the perpetrators of such smut right?
I could give you more if you want, but that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. Take the weekend, do some research if you want. Ask for some help from donsky or anita.
Its not an issue of whether or not they have ever done good work, just from the sheer number of lawsuits they pursue Im sure that a few good ones slipped thru. Al Qaeda has built mosques, that doesnt make them a humanitarian organization just as the ACLU winning a few legitimate free speech cases doesnt make them a pro-American pro-constitution organization.
I call democrats hippies and commies alot, most of the time its as a goof just to rile up the left, but I say this with all sincerity that I believe that the ACLU are a bunch of commies just as much now as they were at their formation which admittingly had a pro-commie agenda.
Donsky, as the donkey said above there are sure to be some cases that were ok. personally i don't think it matters but it wasn't just the sun, it was a sun GOD. How many worship it or which religion it is shouldn't matter. If you're saying they're hypocrites then i agree with you but they can't have it both ways.
I didn't dismiss gary's examples, i questioned the validity and specificity of them. He made vague references to "documents" they "helped to get"
Finally, i don't think you remember the original question. I said what have they done that is good for America? Personally i don't think the nazi's should have been allowed to march, but i understand where you're coming from. My problem with that is they say nothing about the freedom of speech for right to life protestors? and what about the gag order that they have on their own board members? Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.
They fight against bag searches on the subways, but you can't enter their building without having your bag searched.
Again, i could go on but the point is that they're agenda is anti American. They were founded by a communist who wanted to destroy America and the American way of life. This is not disputed by anyone donsky. The goal hasn't changed, only the tactics.
You didn't like that one? Ok, how about this:
In 1968, the ACLU successfully argued against state bans on interracial marriage, in the case of Loving vs. Virginia.
Gary, i said GOOD for America....
Just kidding. That is a good one.
Donsky, i heard about that a long time ago. I read about it and both sides have arguments about what actually happened and why but the mans words speak for themselves.
"I am for Socialism, disarmament and ultimately, for the abolishing of the State itself … I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal." Baldwin 1935
I don't think he just changed his mind 4 years later.
Actually he did change his mind 4 years later:
From Wikipedia:
In St. Louis, Baldwin became greatly influenced by the radical social movement of the anarchist Emma Goldman. He joined the Industrial Workers of the World and developed a sympathy for the Soviet Union and for Communism that lasted until 1939 when he was disillusioned by the Nazi-Soviet Pact and broke off all radical ties. In 1927, he had visited the Soviet Union and wrote a book, Liberty Under the Soviets, which contained extensive praise for the Soviet Union. However, he later denounced communism in his book, A New Slavery, which condemned "the inhuman communist police state tyranny" [1]. In the 1940s, Baldwin led the campaign to purge the ACLU of Communist Party members [2].
if you guys want to believe that the guy was a changed man 4 years later, that's fine. I don't. Besides that he started the organization in 1920, so 20 years later the dye was cast.
It doesn't really matter anyway, the organization is bad news. i have given multiple examples of their anti American and hypocritical actions. You guys have not disagreed with me. They have an agenda that doesn't mesh with the ours. When i say OURS, i mean mine, yours, and any true Americans.
Heres where my problems lies and this is just one example.
Im with you that even Nazis are protected under the constitution, but yet according to the ACLU a teacher wearing a cross necklace isnt? Whats the logic behind that? Are you seriously telling me that a piece of personal jewelry construes state endorsed religion. Fuck the ACLU, there are plenty of organizations out there defending individuals civil liberties without trying to destroy the look the feel of cotton the moral fabric of our lives.
Donsky, the sun god deal was NOT bullshit. It was just one example of their hypocrisy. You seized on the smallest one.
I noticed you didn't say shit about their silence about right to life protestors, the bag searches, or the gag orders on their own employees.
Finally, i do believe in all of the ammendments. I also believe in basic human dignity. So for example if the nudists wanted to march through skokie illinois i would say that i don't think they should be allowed. The intent of the marchers was to cause a riot, or just to stir up trouble in general, therefore i don't believe they should have been allowed. Not letting them march is not the same as not letting them assemble peacefully, or spew their hate, etc. Give them a permit to rally at the park, that's fine with me, but the march was for a different purpose.
Finally, it's funny that you say you believe in all of the ammendments but the aclu does not. they especially don't believe in the 2nd ammendment.
and foget about states rights, they always try to override the will of the people by using friendly federal judges.
i have not been, nor will i ever be debunked. I sir am full of bunk and will remain so until eternity!
Have a good weekend.
Thats our Rhino, star of Brokebunk Mountain.
It is the great satan that i paint it to be.
1.Who worships Ra? i don't know what Ra is, and i don't care. The point is that it's a religous symbol. If 2 people or 2billion people worship it. That was one small anecdote of the aclu war on christianity. i could site many more but you don't give a shit anyway.
2.Curtail civil liberties? They are protesting. It's a free speech thing.
3. So private entities should be left alone right? then why is the aclu trying to stop a PRIVATE organization from erecting a cross in New Orleans on PRIVATE PROPERTY? What's the agenda there????????
4. For an organization that says it deals in FREE SPEECH it seems like their own employees shouldn't be SHOCKED about something like this. But that's what they were.
5. Ok, nudists were a bad example, but the point is INTENT. Like i said i wouldn't have a problem with them demonstrating in some park somewhere, but the intent was to cause trouble. Like having the KKK march through harlem. Why?
6. They do have a policy on guns. The fact that they call it "gun control" should tell you something, but again don't just go by their words, they pro gun regulation. Their actions differ from their words.
7.Enough already with the 2000 election, it's getting old. The people voted, and Bush won. That's that. It was not a statewide election, it was a NATIONAL election. SCOTUS didn't give the election to anyone, they called a halt to the 3rd UNCONSTITUTIONAL recount. That's it! And it was Gore who appealed to them, not Bush.
Finally, don't call me a liar and don't tell me what my beliefs are. I think you're wrong but i'm not saying you're lying. My appeal to populism? I don't exactly know where you're going with that but if you mean states rights i have always believed in them and always will. That doesn't mean that it's 100% one way or the other, but the aclu has REPEATEDLY tried and succeeded to trump the rights of the people by using the federal courts.
I can cite examples of that, and of their gun policy if you would like, but i can see that it won't matter. They are bad people, it is a bad organization. they do not believe in the America that i believe in, or the America that our founders believed in. That's a fact.
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