Omaha Nebraska is segregating the schools? The Legislature voted Last week to divide the Omaha school system into three districts — one mostly black, one predominantly white and one largely Hispanic.
I'm not really sure how i feel about this one. On the one hand, according to the bills sponsor, Omaha Sen. Ernie Chambers, the schools attended largely by minorities lack the resources and quality teachers provided others in the district. He said the black students he represents in north Omaha would receive a better education if they had more control over their district.
On the other hand, it is basically segregation.
I realize that i am over simplifying it, but wouldn't some kind of voucher system or privatization cure the public school problems that we have today?
68 comments:
You're right, you are simplifying. But that's OK. It's what the Rhino does.
Vouchers don't work because a $500 or $1000 voucher isn't going to get a poor kid into a school that's any better than the one he or she is already attending. And there is nothing guaranteeing that that "voucher" is necessarily going to be spent on education.
Privatization won't work because attaching a profit motive to primary and secondary school education is a formula for disaster. It's because of "privatization" that we have McDonald's serving lunch and the corporate-subsidization of Channel One in the classrooms.
There are a lot of really good public schools in New York City. There are many, many reasons for that. But one of them is parent activism. In this day, one cannot send one's kid to school assuming he or she is going to get a quality education. Parents, essentially are the "stakeholders" in the school system and it's been proven that when parents get into the face of the schools by asking questions, listening to the teachers, following the curriculum, essentially keeping and eye on what's going on, kids just do better.
Segregation will never been an answer, obviously. But there is nothing saying that a kid can't go to an all-girl's or all-boy's (or all-"anything" for that matter) school. The needs of every kid are very different and it's up to the parent to make those decisions. But those schools should be private, not paid for by tax dollars.
I've oversimplified as well. But that's what I do.
A recent study indicates thast private schools are in general no better that public schools at educating students. The major difference being that the teachers are paid less. A voucher system may work, but should not include religious schools. What does work is parent involvment. Not more money, and not nessisarily smaller classes.
Anita, i have to disagree with you on almost every point that you try to make.
First, the voucher would be even for everyone, so any kid can get into any school that will accept him. And the voucher wouldn't be cash, or a check, and couldn't be spent on anything else.
Second, the profit motive is what would inspire schools to succeed. right now they don't have to push or work hard because they have a guaranteed customer. No competition. So why put in the extra effort if you don't have to?
Third, you say "In this day, one cannot send one's kid to school assuming he or she is going to get a quality education."
Well this is true, but why not? and what about the kids whose parents don't give a shit? who's looking out for their interests? Right now the answer is nobody. But if you told the Private school/corporation that they will lose $ if these kids don't do well, they would look out for them.
Finally, i agree that segregation is not the answer, but i have to disagree that the tax dollars shouldn't pay for all girls/boys schools. I know the supreme court would disagree with me since they forced VMI to change some years ago, but i disagree with them on that one too.
lefty, i would like to see that study if you could give me a link. Also, i also disagree with you on the religous schools angle. If the parents being involved is important then it should be their decision on how to educate their children. As long as these schools meet the educational standards they should not be excluded.
I disagree with both of you on the constitutional issues, and i believe that the "lemon" decision was wrongly decided.
Either way though private schools seem the best way to solve a lot of the problems we currently have.
Lemon test? I have to disagree in that in no way shape or form was Used Cars as good a movie as Escape From New York, although undoubtedly Kurt Russell's finest comedic performance.
i think the new mission impossible is ripping off escape from ny by the way. apparently the bad guy puts an explosive charge in tom cuise and threatens to blow him up if he doesn't do what he says
First of all, I think that education is, in economic terms, a public, or common good in the same way that law enforcement, clean water, interstate highways, national defense are. They are necessary for the nation to function efficiently and it is almost impossible to say who, really, is the ultimate ONE stakeholder, because, in fact, the nation obtains the greatest overall benefits.
Also, I think that applying a profit motive to education is unfair. The private entity who "owns" the school will necessarily make decision that are in its best interests, not that of the students. And the best interests of the "owner" are not always in the best interest of the students. A private school, in order to attract the best students in order to boast of (or use as a marketing tool) the highest test scores, the best soccer team, etc., could possibly either exclude or marginalize students who need extra help or who are not high performers.
Back to the "common good" issue, the establishment of an excellent school system may not make good "business" sense, but but having a well-educated populace makes huge overall sense for our nation as a whole.
Not all things should be subjected to the quarterly or yearly balance sheet.
Which is not to say that ALL decisions made by a privatized school are necessarily BAD for students.
A flea and a fly in a flue
Were imprisoned, so what could they do?
Said the fly, "let us flee!"
"Let us fly!" said the flea.
So they flew through a flaw in the flue.
Rhino , asked My father ( a retired school superintendent) to resend the link to the study. Waiting for a relpy. As for vouchers to religious schools.. No way, that means madrasas, hinky little schools of cult sects, it opens the door to way to many fringe groups. let the churches themselves subsidise religious schools.
No no lefty, i meant christian schools only.... no just kidding obviously theres more thinking that needs to be done, and clearly i'm not qualified to do it.
Whats wrong with trying to attract the best students? In a free market the best interests of the customer (students) is the best interest of the company (schools) that serves them.
Competition breeds excellence and there is nothing wrong with rewarding achievement. I have no problem with a meritocratic approach to our school system, as some students will become CEO's and some will work the mail room. Neither is necessarily better or more important than the other. Thats just the way it is.
Our job is to provide the tools to give each the best fighting chance to become responsible contributing members of society. The entitlement era must end.
Take Rhino for example, because FAME is his favorite movie hes been applying to Julliard for 15 years, but because he lacks the basic singing, dancing and musical skills his application is perennially rebuffed. Is that fair to Rhino?
Fame was NOT my favorite movie, maybe top ten, but it was one of my favorite tv shows.
Anita, i understand what you're saying, and i agree that education is necessary for the public good. I also agree that some schools would necessarily reject the lower acheivers, but that would create a market for other schools/companies, or it would force the existing schools/companies to work harder to help these kids acheive.
I believe that competition and free markets are the solution to many of our problems today.
I've done a thorough search of "the literature" and have found that there is NOTHING there that can serve as a precedent with regard to the Rhinoculosituation. So on that subject, I'll defer to those more educated (and with thicker skin)than me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm essentially a free markets person myself. But it's well-known that the free market is amoral and has only one purpose: profit. As such, it cannot solve ALL of society's problems.
In other words, while I am a girl and I like pink, I'm not a pinko.
(pink the color, i'm not a big fan of pink the singer)
phew.
Of course you're correct on that anita, the free market can not solve All of the problems, but i bet it could solve MOST of them.
I might agree with you on that.
I think everything relevant to this topic has been said so I just have to say this...
Rangers lose the Atlantic to the NEW JERSEY DEVILS!
Knicks lose the Atlantic to everyone but especially to the NEW JERSEY NETS!
Does anyone remember when NY sports teams could compete with NJ because it is becoming a distant memory to me!!! We even own and house your football teams! We own you suckaz!!! I love New York but NJ is the place to be...
But Fly, I printed a limerick just for you!! I felt so bad for what you went through yesterday ... I would expect you to say at least "Thanks for thinking of my feelings Anita."
But no ...
I have to go cry again. Excuse me.
Nets still aint winning shit. And btw they are the brooklyn nets. And Hollywood Joe is a distant memory to me too........
You have a problem with Brooklyn?
NJ, the garbage state.
Think about it, it's like you married a chick (giants/jets) but she's keeping her maiden name because she doesn't want people to know. Is that something you should be bragging about? then you add the fact that the nets are moving to brooklyn, and what do you have left???? The devils. Hockey is canada's national pasttime.
nuff said.
I am Brooklyn
you are? what part?
Well said Rhino--NJ will always be in NYs shadow no matter what happens. Don't feel bad some people still think NY is the capital of America.
he's the punkass part!
It aint?
Wait, are you saying NY isn't the capital?
Whatever man, that's just crazy talk!
New state motto...
Joisey
The poor man's Staten Island
ouch.... you know that hurted
hey where is lily? this school issue is right in her wheelhouse.
Alternative...
Joisey
Landfilltastic
(Donkey: Lily Version 2.0: Regulations reduce efficiency. Niche services reduce competition. Reduced competition affects performance upsets price-market intercept. Cronyism reduces performance.)
I mentioned this in response to Benjamin on privatization and the IRS. While I could jump in, I would rather just "listen" as Rhino and I have been down this path already. I'll just get into privatization.
I am not opposed to privatization and competition. Many of my views are pretty far away from liberal where economics are concerned. That said, this is what happens with privatization in the real world:
An inefficient poorly performing system (like in my IRS post) gets "privatized" ostensibly to interject competition and profit motive with two typical objectives- improve quality and efficiency. And carefully executed this could work. But privatization does not exist in a systemic vacuum!
What does NOT work is when you co-mingle complicated and excessive regulations designed for example to address inequities with private management and efficient business models. The result is that the private entity, because its hands are tied, becomes quasi-governmental and beholden. It becomes unable to self correct or manage for efficiency. It becomes a puppet contractual extension of the 'state'.
The second problem with privatization is that niche services become monopolistic in many communities. What starts as "competition" often becomes DEFAULT. (good case studies: defense sector)
Profit becomes concentrated in upper management and the top positions become lucrative and corrupt and fall prey thereafter to cronyism. While unionized civil servants are eradicated, communities lose the higher pay and in turn the community has less income to spend in their local economy.
So-
Regulations reduce efficiency. Niche services reduce competition. Reduced competition affects performance upsets price-market intercept. Cronyism reduces performance.
hey where is lily? this school issue is right in her wheelhouse.
Now shut the eff up
Sorry????
"Canarsie" Anita
Pay teachers more-make them accountable for their results financially
NJ's new motto is:
New Jersey, you got a problem with that?
NJ rocks...you have probably only been to Hudson and Essex county because that is as far as the bus/train would take you. Our beaches are better and cleaner. Our sports teams kick your ass (they still play in NJ now so shut it). Our rich people are richer. And finally NJ has me. NYC is the capital of the world but a good portion of the people who make NYC what it is, leave at night and go home to NJ. Staten Island is little Long Island as they are both shamefully part of New York and the greatest city in the world...you can keep your trash borough and your trash basketball and hockey teams. You created them and we aren't buying although we still send our trash there (Stephon Marbury). Weren't they supposed to stop dumping there (Staten Island & MSG)? Can't New Yorkers control themselves? Stop shitting where you eat.
Hey Fly you are the nearest Auroran to me. Are you familiar with Long Valley?
You see, i told you this was right in her wheelhouse!
So anyway, like i said privatization is a great idea, and why have all the regulation? Just let the market handle it, and make sure they meet academic standards.
That's it, otherwise let them run themselves.
Of course this is unrealistic because the union scumbags wouldn't let it happen, but it's still the right way to do it... in my not so humble opinon i mean.
Warlike, i would agree with you there but teachers are already overpaid, and the unions would never allow them to actually be held accountable for their work. That would be so UN socialist.
I am Lily...it's beautiful up there. In fact, my first girlfriend lived off Schooley Mountain Road...
I am sorry Donkey...Most people criticize NJ when the only place in NJ that they've been is Newark Airport or on the NJ Turnpike. New Yorkers don't need cars...but since it is a sore spot I will be sure to bring it up more often!
PS - you were the one who coined the renter thing if I remember correctly...
This is a good discussion though so I won't interrupt it with any further dribble...Stay in school kids.
Fly you are delusional. First of all I respect the fact that you live there. But come on--everybody knows NJ is corny.
Why do you think Friday and Saturday night is called "bridge and tunnel night?" Its because we get all the silver-open-shirt country people from NJ.
My 12 year old little cousin said it best one day when we were in NJ looking over to NY. He said "wow NY looks great from here-lets hurry up and get back-I wonder if anybody ids looking at NJ from over there thinking the same thing" there was a moment of silence and then: "NAH!!!"
You must be one of those Jersey big shots Ive been reading about.
Monday-Friday is bridge and tunnel DAYS because of all the folks who work in NYC but choose to live in New Jersey. Nothing rivals the NYC skyline but I would have to say the Jersey City skyline is a damn bit more impressive than looking out of NY onto Connecticut...I can't understand that we have Delaware, Conn., Penn, and New England surrounding us and New Yorkers poke jabs at NYC...First of all NJ doesn't have active landfills...New York does. We have burners. Where do you think we send our stink? Oh well, broken promises, nuff said.
Fly,
Why are you still talking about transportation? Didnt you learn you lesson yesterday. Just because you HAVE to buy a new car every year doesnt mean youre an Automotive Tycoon.
I meant NJ there...and if you are talking about the Dukies preppies, I thought two of the three to be charged were from New York? I have to give some credit because I heard about that here first.
But speaking of, maybe you should start using the train/bus sytem to come to Shea so as to not miss the first 4 innings of every game. Have fun in that traffic tough nutz.
How did you make your comment appear, disappear, and reappear...I already addressed that driving/transportation nonsense above...sorry strap hangers...no offense. I take it back.
Oh Donkey, but I so enjoy giving you rides home. Seriously though, there is no parking at Shea and now they have a carnival in the parking lot and are soon to break ground for the new stdm...I might have to start taking the train again.
Fly! I am on that road all the time! I have relatives all around there too and it is pretty. I was just in Chester a few days ago. Do you golf in Panther?
I figure I might as well get a free ride out of all the beers I buy you after you conviniently run out of cash after the first round. Get a job and a haircut you hippie.
What are you getting into tonight Fly?
Kind of reminds me of the Waynes World skit where they are "globetrotting" with exotic scenes in the background. Until they get to Delaware
Uh Um... Yay Delaware???
"Cesspool Of Sprawl" ...sounds like the next Dictator hit to me. Probaly wont go over that well at The Stone Pony though.
Benjamin,
Yes- thats exactly what I am saying- that we cannot have it both ways and have it work. We cannot have privatization that is excessively regulated just like we could not have a privatized IRS but impose the current regs upon it.
When I say that niche services end up as a monopoly, I do not mean a monopoly in the sense that nobody could compete with a contracted service. I mean that the competition over time becomes less viable the longer one private entity is favored. Home schooling is an option but since schools provide a babysitting function it is not a real threat to a private school to the extent that it would coerce better performance.
The monopoly function has more to do with capital costs, I know that you are already aware of that dynamic as I assume we both took municipal finance and general accounting. I mentioned the military contracting as an example because this is especially true with outlay for customized machinery.
Picture the privatized school underperforming later but with existing resources (physical plant, etc.) Down the road, what start up could underbid?So where is the competition? It fades in a glow of Halliburtonescence.
And Rhino- hypothetically now- SUPPOSE I agreed in free (but gold based) market and suppose I also felt that taxation is a scam to redistribute wealth to punish capitalists and reward the shiftless lazy poor...
Why vouchers? Why do you favor a level of bureaucracy in your 'free market" model? Why not cut taxes in half and only spend on defense, disaster, epidemiology, and infrastructure (where user fees are impractical) and let parents use the money from their paychecks to pay for the privatized schools?
Take it a step further. Restrict raising revenue to only those essential functions and let people pay for ALL services. Fire, police, etc. and let them live where their budget suits them and they are willing to pay to play. The rest?
Why, alms houses of course!!!
As long as government has control over everything, their power will corrupt them and regulation and cronyism is inevitable.
The only way to take away corrupt power is to take away the bratty government's allowance.
lily, taxation IS a scam to redistribute wealth from the producers to the non procucers, but that's a story for another day.
Tax cuts for education don't work because poor people don't pay income taxes, so they wouldn't be able to send their kids to school. And as i said earlier, i agree with anita that an educated society is essential to our national well being.
So i say if you're going to take MY money to send someone elses kids to school, at least spend it efficiently. In fact i say that about all of my taxes, and of course it's never the case.
I do agree with you that corruption is inevitable where government is involved, but thats where we are now. NO? So why not try something else?
If the taxspenders spent as much time as us taxpayers on these problems wed be in much better shape. Solving problems doesnt pay the bills in DC, it's all about the power grab to see who gets control of the 3 bil kitty.
Rhino when I say cut taxes I mean across the board- Income based vouchers to the privatized schools. I am not suggesting the poor not have an education. I am just taking your free market model and explaining that privatization and free markets only work in the context of an unregulated society. People that want privatization or free markets seem to think they can exist in a vacuum. Thats the trouble.
You cannot have both high regulation and state funded privatization. You cannot really have justice or welfare without regulations.
You cannot have free market with justice and providing for the poor because eventually you get back to a welfare state. What about poor people, make an exception. What about retarded children and the specialized needs of education? Make an exception. Juvenile delinquent education? Exception. Paying for foster kids? Exception.What about private schools that go bankrupt? Bail them out, interfere, make an exception. Transportation? Insurance too high in one area? Subsidy. Make an exception. Caring for the poor is a slippery slope, see?
There is always a rationalization for the "common good" case for Feds. John Stuart Mill makes a good distinction for when to involve government and when not to.
i actually agree with donkey ... fancy that.
What would Gang Starr do in this situation?
WGBH FM Boston has had Eric in the Evening with Eric Wright for the last 40 years. I mailed him a copy of my blog address. Jazz, you know. There is so much Jazz on Full Clip I and II. Boston, you know.
Yeah trix, most people don't know gangstarr for some reason, i'm a fan.
Full Clip you don't want to mess with this
Gang starr one of the best yet
That stuff is so sock solid. I was hanging out all by myself across the stream between lower Brookline and Roxbury across the way and two dudes showed up from there and were looking at me. Laughter. I was too solipsistic and just left, 4 PM. Actually a nice place, Roxbury.
That place puts a lot of stock in Malcolm X's "getting off the train when everybody else did" at Harvard Square.
Bonnie at TT The Bear's Place, home away from home of Chris Doherty (Gang Green) couldn't put enough emphasis on Gang Starr when I used to go up there all the time and sit at the bar.
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