what these statistics show is that unemployment among young people is at an unprecedented high.
so rather than pay american teenagers minimum wage, employers would rather hire illegal immigrants to work under the table for less than minimum wage.
the unemployment rate among young people is also a result of companies moving their lesser skilled jobs overseas because they don't want to pay even a living wage (as if minimum wage was a living wage) to american workers, they don't want to train young people for the economy of the future and essentially feel no obligation at all toward the future of this nation.
thank you donkeyhue, you proved my point excellently. good job.
Getlive. Unions and minimum wage laws force companies to either pay more than a job is worth or not hire as many people. Small business is the biggest job creator and Most of the time they just don't hire as many people because they just cant afford it. So young and or uneducated people are hurt the most when the economy goes south or when u have an influx of illegal labor or both.
The bottom line is that if you aren't getting subsidized by the government you have to do what is best for the business. Or you can " feel an obligation to young people" and go out of business. But at least stupid people will think you're patriotic when you lose your shirt so that's something...
Without unions and minimum wage laws we would be one step closer to living in a third-world like country, where the richest 1% own everything. Sure businesses could hire more people if they only paid them half as much. Duh. It's not possible to survive on minimum wage. How would it be possible to survive on less?
During the prosperous 50s we had a top tax rate of 91% (too high in my opinion) and strong labor unions. At that time it was possible for a wage-earner to support a family, even if his wife didn't work. Those days are gone. Those policies brought workers into the middle class. The policies you advocate would destroy what's left of that middle class. Who would buy the products of a consumer society then?
What does the minimum wage have to do with unemployment rates?
Everything.
Every time the minimum wage has been raised unemployment has gone up. Every time. As Rhino pointed out, its usually the Democrats key demographics that get hit hardest; minorities, the young, and uneducated.
Not making a grand statement with this post, just pointing out the obvious, Democrats hate minorities, the young, and uneducated.
no. democrats, unlike republicans, want to make sure that the young, minorities and undereducated are not taken advantage of by business (big or small) and are given at least a "minimum" opportunity to improve their lives, gain an education, enter into the american power structure that will give them confidence and the means to obtain a wage that will improve their access to success.
you can't be so simplistic about the unemployment we are facing today. one of the main contributing factors to unemployment is the financial meltdown that occurred due to a massive lack of regulation and oversight in the financial sector. small and medium size companies are not not hiring because of the minimum wage, they are not hiring because they are being excluded from access to capital to keep their businesses going. businesses do business with other businesses and when a company's business partners are downsizing, then they, too, are forced to downsize. and so it goes.
the right continues to blow extremely hot and extremely noxious air about how terrible and job killing the minimum wage is, and they are counting on people like you guys to believe them. don't be doe-eyed beievers in everything they say. study and understand the complexities of economics before you start to make simplistic statements.
It really is that simple. Every time the minimum wage has been increased, jobs have been lost. This is part of your problem, you think youre smarter than you are. This isnt rocket surgery.
Look back at the Aurora archives from '07. We predicted that unemployment was about to skyrocket. How did we know this? Are we psychic super geniuses? Maybe, but it was simply a matter of understanding that 2 + 2 = 4.
The Dems took control of Congress and one of their first acts was to tie up a minimum wage hike with Iraq/Afghan War funding which Bush signed into law. We opposed this not only on free market principle, but as we wrote about four years ago, we knew it would be an immediate job killer. We take no joy in being right.
Real people get hurt by liberal fell good legislation, real people the dems claim to champion, which leads me to believe that they dont really care for them all that much, as I dont believe in the maxim that you only hurt the ones you love.
The minimum wage is a perfect example of a law that sounds good on paper, and is great to campaign on, but does not work out as intended.
Wage controls don't work. They never have and they never will.
Let private industry decide what a job is worth and see if they can get it done for that amount. If they can't they will raise the pay. If they under pay they will lose their best employees to the competition. The most industrious will benefit from the competition and the lazy ones will either work harder or get less. Either way it's up to them.
This is common sense.
Fleebaggers seem to think that no industry can run efficiently or fairly without government control and regulation but the evidence is clearly showing the opposite.
Would you say that employers should be able to hire the appropriate employees, regardless of citizenship then? I am trying to understand why you prefer free market labor but not labor competition.
I have mixed views on minimum wage and borders. I'm asking because it seems contradictory to say "hire who you want and pay what makes sense" and also say that we don't want competition from illegal workers, to me the issue is not labor competition but social resources.
I get that illegal workers don't pay taxes, but I am also against income taxation and favor sales tax. Everyone who spends Sunday morning at the wal-mart loading up on dog food and paper plates can pay a little more but keep their incomes. If an illegal immigrant buys a Pepsi, they are tax payers.
Not trying to change the subject just trying to figure out where you guys are at.
Speaking for myself I agree with you on the resources. Illegals easily take more than they give. Even if they were paying income taxes it wouldn't be close but that's the same with all low income workers. However at least they would be forced to pay something and that would mean they couldn't drive down the wage rate.
I disagree with your sales tax argument because it hurts the poor disproportionately and although I am a big mean tea party conservative who is a Nazi and a racist who hates poor people I am also the product of a very low income upbringing and a very large family so I know how that can hurt.
I am a believer in the only fair tax which is a flat tax. Take the exact same percentage of everyones income. Make exceptions for the bottom 20% or whatever who wouldn't have to pay any income taxes at all and whatever that number is that's your budget for the year. If it's not enough then you're spending too much.
Or make a constitutional amendment that the federal budget can't be more than 15% of GDP.
I agree that the sales tax approach makes items more expensive but it also provides more take home pay. I'm not super attached to the idea, though. I agree with the flat tax as you describe it as well. Something has to be done.
Well when I say free trade, I suppose what I really mean is fair trade, and hiring illegals would not constitute fair in my opinion.
I like many had a minimum wage job growing up and I thought it sucked and grew tired of drinking Milwaukees Best when my friends were drinking Molson so I got a better paying job.
But stuck with the Mills Best (I had grown attached) not to mention, Fuck Canada.
Well undocumented workers would likely drive down wages for employers without minimum wage laws, true?
But it seems like a pro-business stance (which is not what I am advocating) would be to welcome the competition of labor so people are willing to accept less and therefore, cut costs.
Undocumented workers drive down wages for all employers with minimum wage laws and without.
You statement hinges on an illegal activity, and I wouldnt go so far as to say its an anti-business stance to expect them to uphold the law.
I dont even fault them really all that much, no more than I would someone driving over the speed limit to make an important engagement on time. Everyone cuts corners. I dont even blame the illegals, this is a great country.
But laws are laws and when they are caught they need to be deported end of story and when companies are caught hiring them they need to punished in a manner thats fiscally deterrent to them doing it again.
14 comments:
What does the minimum wage have to do with unemployment rates?
what these statistics show is that unemployment among young people is at an unprecedented high.
so rather than pay american teenagers minimum wage, employers would rather hire illegal immigrants to work under the table for less than minimum wage.
the unemployment rate among young people is also a result of companies moving their lesser skilled jobs overseas because they don't want to pay even a living wage (as if minimum wage was a living wage) to american workers, they don't want to train young people for the economy of the future and essentially feel no obligation at all toward the future of this nation.
thank you donkeyhue, you proved my point excellently. good job.
Getlive. Unions and minimum wage laws force companies to either pay more than a job is worth or not hire as many people.
Small business is the biggest job creator and Most of the time they just don't hire as many people because they just cant afford it. So young and or uneducated people are hurt the most when the economy goes south or when u have an influx of illegal labor or both.
The bottom line is that if you aren't getting subsidized by the government you have to do what is best for the business. Or you can " feel an obligation to young people" and go out of business. But at least stupid people will think you're patriotic when you lose your shirt so that's something...
Without unions and minimum wage laws we would be one step closer to living in a third-world like country, where the richest 1% own everything. Sure businesses could hire more people if they only paid them half as much. Duh. It's not possible to survive on minimum wage. How would it be possible to survive on less?
During the prosperous 50s we had a top tax rate of 91% (too high in my opinion) and strong labor unions. At that time it was possible for a wage-earner to support a family, even if his wife didn't work. Those days are gone. Those policies brought workers into the middle class. The policies you advocate would destroy what's left of that middle class. Who would buy the products of a consumer society then?
What does the minimum wage have to do with unemployment rates?
Everything.
Every time the minimum wage has been raised unemployment has gone up. Every time. As Rhino pointed out, its usually the Democrats key demographics that get hit hardest; minorities, the young, and uneducated.
Not making a grand statement with this post, just pointing out the obvious, Democrats hate minorities, the young, and uneducated.
no. democrats, unlike republicans, want to make sure that the young, minorities and undereducated are not taken advantage of by business (big or small) and are given at least a "minimum" opportunity to improve their lives, gain an education, enter into the american power structure that will give them confidence and the means to obtain a wage that will improve their access to success.
you can't be so simplistic about the unemployment we are facing today. one of the main contributing factors to unemployment is the financial meltdown that occurred due to a massive lack of regulation and oversight in the financial sector. small and medium size companies are not not hiring because of the minimum wage, they are not hiring because they are being excluded from access to capital to keep their businesses going. businesses do business with other businesses and when a company's business partners are downsizing, then they, too, are forced to downsize. and so it goes.
the right continues to blow extremely hot and extremely noxious air about how terrible and job killing the minimum wage is, and they are counting on people like you guys to believe them. don't be doe-eyed beievers in everything they say. study and understand the complexities of economics before you start to make simplistic statements.
It really is that simple. Every time the minimum wage has been increased, jobs have been lost. This is part of your problem, you think youre smarter than you are. This isnt rocket surgery.
Look back at the Aurora archives from '07. We predicted that unemployment was about to skyrocket. How did we know this? Are we psychic super geniuses? Maybe, but it was simply a matter of understanding that 2 + 2 = 4.
The Dems took control of Congress and one of their first acts was to tie up a minimum wage hike with Iraq/Afghan War funding which Bush signed into law. We opposed this not only on free market principle, but as we wrote about four years ago, we knew it would be an immediate job killer. We take no joy in being right.
Real people get hurt by liberal fell good legislation, real people the dems claim to champion, which leads me to believe that they dont really care for them all that much, as I dont believe in the maxim that you only hurt the ones you love.
The minimum wage is a perfect example of a law that sounds good on paper, and is great to campaign on, but does not work out as intended.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny.
And that really is the point.
Wage controls don't work. They never have and they never will.
Let private industry decide what a job is worth and see if they can get it done for that amount. If they can't they will raise the pay. If they under pay they will lose their best employees to the competition. The most industrious will benefit from the competition and the lazy ones will either work harder or get less. Either way it's up to them.
This is common sense.
Fleebaggers seem to think that no industry can run efficiently or fairly without government control and regulation but the evidence is clearly showing the opposite.
Would you say that employers should be able to hire the appropriate employees, regardless of citizenship then? I am trying to understand why you prefer free market labor but not labor competition.
I have mixed views on minimum wage and borders. I'm asking because it seems contradictory to say "hire who you want and pay what makes sense" and also say that we don't want competition from illegal workers, to me the issue is not labor competition but social resources.
I get that illegal workers don't pay taxes, but I am also against income taxation and favor sales tax. Everyone who spends Sunday morning at the wal-mart loading up on dog food and paper plates can pay a little more but keep their incomes. If an illegal immigrant buys a Pepsi, they are tax payers.
Not trying to change the subject just trying to figure out where you guys are at.
Speaking for myself I agree with you on the resources. Illegals easily take more than they give. Even if they were paying income taxes it wouldn't be close but that's the same with all low income workers. However at least they would be forced to pay something and that would mean they couldn't drive down the wage rate.
I disagree with your sales tax argument because it hurts the poor disproportionately and although I am a big mean tea party conservative who is a Nazi and a racist who hates poor people I am also the product of a very low income upbringing and a very large family so I know how that can hurt.
I am a believer in the only fair tax which is a flat tax. Take the exact same percentage of everyones income. Make exceptions for the bottom 20% or whatever who wouldn't have to pay any income taxes at all and whatever that number is that's your budget for the year. If it's not enough then you're spending too much.
Or make a constitutional amendment that the federal budget can't be more than 15% of GDP.
I agree that the sales tax approach makes items more expensive but it also provides more take home pay. I'm not super attached to the idea, though. I agree with the flat tax as you describe it as well. Something has to be done.
Well when I say free trade, I suppose what I really mean is fair trade, and hiring illegals would not constitute fair in my opinion.
I like many had a minimum wage job growing up and I thought it sucked and grew tired of drinking Milwaukees Best when my friends were drinking Molson so I got a better paying job.
But stuck with the Mills Best (I had grown attached) not to mention, Fuck Canada.
Well undocumented workers would likely drive down wages for employers without minimum wage laws, true?
But it seems like a pro-business stance (which is not what I am advocating) would be to welcome the competition of labor so people are willing to accept less and therefore, cut costs.
Undocumented workers drive down wages for all employers with minimum wage laws and without.
You statement hinges on an illegal activity, and I wouldnt go so far as to say its an anti-business stance to expect them to uphold the law.
I dont even fault them really all that much, no more than I would someone driving over the speed limit to make an important engagement on time. Everyone cuts corners. I dont even blame the illegals, this is a great country.
But laws are laws and when they are caught they need to be deported end of story and when companies are caught hiring them they need to punished in a manner thats fiscally deterrent to them doing it again.
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