"There was no question in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq
and Al Qaida"
9/11 commission chairman Thomas Kean
Well now we're starting to see the documents that led the 9/11 commission to believe that. I am not expecting to see a big report on this in the slimes, so i thought i would try to bring it to light here at The Aurora.
According to documents recently released by the Bush administration, there certainly was a relationship, in fact these documents reveal the following:
That OBL and the Taliban are in contact with Iraq and that a group of Taliban and bin Laden group members visited Iraq.
That the U.S. has proof the Iraqi government and "bin Laden's group" agreed to cooperate to attack targets inside America.
That in case the Taliban and bin Laden's group turn out to be involved in "these destructive operations," the U.S. may strike Iraq and Afghanistan.
That the Afghani consul heard about the issue of Iraq's relationship with "bin Laden's group" while he was in Iran.
There is of course also the testimony of the former Iraqi air force general who says saddam had WMD.
Now i have many problems with the current administration, i have stated them in the past here at The Aurora, but i have never wavered on Iraq. In a post 9/11 world, with the intelligence telling us saddam had WMD and contact with al qaida, i thought the president did the right thing. When we thought the intelligence was wrong, i still supported the presidents decision, because i felt that based on the info he had he did the right thing.
The anti war argument was and is, that saddam didn't have WMD, and that even if he did, there was no connection to 9/11.
After the 9/11 commission report came out, i expected the argument to die, but it seems no one cared that the commission said there was a relationship. I saw many stories in the press about the commission, but none really talking much about the connection.
Now we have even more proof of the connection and the WMD.
So will we see universal support for the war in Iraq now?
Will Cindy Sheehan and George Clooney and their ilk apologize?
Somehow i doubt it, but i wonder what the readers of The Aurora have to say?
Read more here and here
45 comments:
It doesnt matter anymore. People will believe what they want to believe. Just as the majority of people think that the Civil War was fought over slavery or that WWII was fought to free the Jews. History is not only told by the victors, but by the teachers...and we all know that most teachers are hippie commies.
Let's look at one of the docs that are being misrepresented as proof of a connection between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden:
Our source in Afghanistan No 11002 (for information about him see attachment 1) provided us with information that that Afghani Consul Ahmad Dahestani (for information about him see attachment 2) told him the following:
1. That Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan are in contact with Iraq and it that previously a group from Taliban and Osama Bin Laden group visited Iraq.
2. That America has proof that the government of Iraq and Osama Bin Laden group have shown cooperation to hit target within America.
3. That in case it is proven the involvement of Osama Bin Laden group and the Taliban in these destructive operations it is possible that American will conduct strikes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
4. That the Afghani Consul heard about the subject of Iraq relation with Osama Bin Laden group during his stay in Iran.
So, this is a third-hand report originating from an unkown source in Iran.
This is not proof--it's not even strong evidence. The CIA receives "raw intelligence" like this all the time. If the U.S. actually had the "proof" mentioned in the document, wouldn't they have released it long ago?
Why do you think that it is as simple as this for those that oppose the war, huh? What about those of us that oppose the war because of other reasons like the ten others I have? Even if you can jump around like a pep rally teenager saying "See, my lies turned out true! We are not assholes! Oh Happy day!!!!"
That does not change my views on *legality* and *justification*. It also does not answer the question of illegally deployed NG troops which violates state sovereignty law, which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL- Rhino can maybe talk about THAT as he is our Scalia-SCOTUS smoocher.
You are using reverse logic: go to war, then watch those that oppose the war screech about disproving the rationale. The burden of proof was on the President, and it was not adequate. The responsibility for getting the information was on them, and they are paid almost half our salaries to get off their dysfunctional fed asses and get it the fuck right. And if they ARE indeed that incompetent- heads should have rolled because thats the American accountability MY kind of Republicans stand for. Not this kind.
Are you suggesting that they might be vindicated because there might be a sliver of evidence linking AQ to Iraq- NOW in HINDSIGHT we are supposed to think the President did the right thing? Come on, Donkey. Thats bullshit.You people have more conspiracies than the damned liberals for pete's sake. Lefty media cover up too?
The 9-11 commission report was a fraud perpetrated against the victims, families, and anyone who suffers in the future as a result of their lack of fortitude and responsibility to make a truthful assessment of what happened so that we might protect people with that knowledge. Refusing and suppressing expert testimony and REFUSING to implement the recommendations of the panel amount to yet another national disgrace.
And even if I bought your line of Mary Kay, Donkey, it still doesn't change the fact that we do not have the troops, resources, money, etc. to continue this quagmire.
Who is going to apologize for all that?
Your trouble is that you keep the bar very low in terms of what justifies the death of our enlisted men and women. Sorry, but for their sake and value I think we could have done better than this. If your "findings" somehow make you feel better about these lost lives, so be it. But you have no right at all to suggest that Cindy Sheehan has no right to question the "noble cause" that was sold to her son and to the American people.
I'm not worried about politics, I am worried about the cheap price this administration puts on its citizens.Continuing to play politics with this stupid pissing contest is dishonorable to both the dead and the victims of 9-11.
Maybe they should ask Google Earth to fucking find Bin Laden and avenge 9-11. Maybe while they were building their bases near their precious pipelines in Afghanistan they could have sent a few people out to search for him! The Bush you love is an incompetent leader, inconsistent, misguided, ignorant, and has no strategy to share with the American people. REAGAN was a genius compared to this man.
9-11 has nothing to do with 'spreading Democracy" or whatever the excuse is THIS WEEK. Shame on anyone that uses that tragedy for their own PRE PLANNED agenda. The war with Iraq was in motion BEFORE 9-11 which pretty much sinks your ego ship as far as I'm concerned.
Or don't Republicans read their own memos? You don't need your Pravda on Hudson, the Wolfowitz Memo is widely available for you to see for yourself. Whether the media reports it or not, preplanned war is damned suspicious to me.
Im not the author. Your rage has blinded you. Im beginning to think you are developing an unhealthy fascination with me.
Ben, i couldn't agree more about the 9/11 commission, but when they released the report it was huge news, and the media and the democratic party used it like a club against the president.
In the mean time, the proof is there that saddam had a relationship with Osama. There's your 9/11 connection.
Actually the report won't point those other things out because then they'd have to implicat the clinton white house, more specifically jamie gorelick who was on the 9/11 commission.
I think the proof that WMD existed is burned up in Sandy Bergers fireplace, but don't worry, he got fined for that.
Gary, there's more proof that he had WMD and a relationship with Osama than there is that Bush lied, but that doesn't stop you or your ilk from stating that shit like it's fact. You call Bush a liar and ignore the fact that EVERYONE who saw the intelligence said the same thing, but i guess that's all the proof you need. We found stockpiles of restricted weapons, we have audio tapes of saddam and his cronies talking about how they subverted the un inspectors etc.
Where is your proof?
I bet not one of you warmongers have spoken to one soldier involved in that stupid conflict.
They still don't know why they are there.........
It is simply not true that "everyone" thought Saddam had WMDs. Look up what Scott Ritter and Hans Blix had to say before the war, and they were the weapons inspectors. Look up General Hussein Kamel, Saddams son-in-law and the man in charge of the WMD programs--he defected and told the U.S. that all the WMDs had been destroyed.He was later killed by Saddam.
Let me guess. You have. So you feel you have some moral authority on the issue? Thats a pretty god damn arrogant assumption.
I never spoke to Robert E Lee either and it doesnt mean I dont know that the "Civil War" was an act of Northern Aggression.
...did someone really just reference Hans Brix?
lily where is your proof???
Once again you are saying the president lied, but you have no proof! The burden of proof is on you! you are the accuser!!!!
Reagan was a genius compared to ANYONE. But more importantly, you throw out insults about your president willy nilly because you don't agree with his policies, and then you claim.
9-11 has nothing to do with 'spreading Democracy" or whatever the excuse is THIS WEEK. Shame on anyone that uses that tragedy for their own PRE PLANNED agenda. The war with Iraq was in motion BEFORE 9-11 which pretty much sinks your ego ship as far as I'm concerned.
Who says it was a pre planned agenda? YOU? Who are you?
when did you get your spot on the senate intelligence committe? You don't know shit! Did you read that in the times? Was that in the 9/11 commission report? Oh that's only a bullshit report when its convenient for you. You have opinions, and that's fine, but you state it like its fact. You listen to that dimwit cindy sheehan, because her son died, but what about the hundreds of other mothers who believe in the cause???? To you they're fools, because of course lily knows what's right and wrong, lily knows who's lying and who's not!
lily doesn't know shit!
You want to yell and scream that Bush is stupid, and Bush is a liar, and then when proof starts rolling in that he's not any of those things you all of a sudden have 10 other things which bother you about the war.
And those ten things are????? oh right, when the NG troops were deployed you immediately realized that it was unconstitutional and that was a major problem for you!
Of course before that there was 9 other things which you failed to mention. Whatever lily, at least lets be honest! if the troops were fighting to save some fucking wilderness in Alaska you wouldn't have any qualms about the constitution!
Oh and lily, if you're going to cry about me saying you don't know shit, then stay in your little echo chamber over at the noose. You want to play with the big dogs at the aurora you better be ready to shit with them too.
Gary, jimmy carter went to N.Korea and said they didn't have any bad intentions, and there was no nuke program either.
But really, i'm sure i would rather listen to hans blix than the CIA, and all the other countries intelligence agencies that said he had them
I'm not crying about anything, Rhino. But I respect your wishes. Regardless I do appreciate that you have put time into the comments and remarks you have made. I have no unhealthy fixation either, by the way. I find Donkeyhue to be an intelligent blogger with some interesting points that have definitely made me stop and do more reading and thinking. I thought that I was welcome to give my opinions too, I didn't know you preferred this echo chamber you speak of.
I wish I had such crystal clear perfect opinions on everything but I don't. I might not agree with everything Donkey writes but I assumed he was putting it out there to discuss.
I didn't know this was a closed clique, Rhino.
I am sorry, you're right. I can't "shit with the big dogs" at Aurora. I have other things going on that unfortunately take up a lot of my attention right now.
I am willing to concede that I was wrong and that Saddam Hussein had WMDs if anyone can provide clear and convincing evidence of such. So far, I haven't seen it. The administration cherry-picked raw intelligence to support their case for war, and now rightwing bloggers are doing the same.
Dont let Rhino scare you with his Fox News rhetoric Lily. Plus its Monday--notoriously miserable day.
Shit with the big dogs??? And what do you call your blog????
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The Aristocrats
By the way, I looked at your links and am not impressed. Document CMPC-2003-006430 cited in the second link is an American document from the internet, with an Arabic cover sheet. Professor Juan Cole, who knows Arabic, translated it, and basically it says here's an American document we found on the internet.
Any of you fucking pricks qoute 'Office Space', and I'll execute every motherfucking last one of ya!
Don't try to turn it around lily.
You're always welcome here, i just don't want to hear about how i insulted you and hurt your feelings. I came to the boot and said i couldn't take you seriously and you acted like i just ran over your dog, then you come over here and go into attack mode.
If you want to battle we battle, don't hit me and then say i shouldn't hit back because your a girl.
oh gary you're not impressed?
Well guess what man we landed on the moon more than once, but you're not impressed with that evidence either. So i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The burden of proof is not on us to prove now that he possessed WMD's. The cause of this war is that Saddam refused to comply with multiple UN resolutions to prove that he had destroyed the ones he did have. The question is not whether he had them or was further attempting to attain more. That is unrefutable. He had them, we supplied him with some, and he used them on numerous occasions in the past. If he actually did destroy them, all I gotta say is bad bluff douche bag...Saddam shouldve complied with the UN resolutions allowing the weapons inspectors FULL access, which he did not. If he he did have them and moved them to Syria (my guess), all I gotta say is bad bluff douche bag... Saddam shouldve complied with the UN resolutions allowing the weapons inspectors FULL access, which he did not
The burden of proof was on Saddam, not Bush, not the UN, not the fucking Backstreet Boys. To avoid war all Saddam had to do was allow full access to UN weapons inspectors, which he continually refused to do.
Donk, come on buddy!!--The UN did not ask us to invade Iraq. We decided to do that. The target was attractive. So attractive they never calculated the resistance they would encounter.
There are numerous countries that have not complied with UN resolutions(including Israel)-why arent we invading all of them?
"You expect me to believe Omar was a stoolie because SOSA says so?"
I didnt say the UN asked us to, but Saddams continued failure to comply with said UN resolutions gave the Keanu-cons © (as it gave Clinton prior as well) the excuse they needed to invade.
Only you can prevent forest fires
Only Saddam could have prevented this war, he chose not to. Like I said bad bluff.
Rhino-itall said:
Well guess what man we landed on the moon more than once, but you're not impressed with that evidence either. So i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What the hell are you talking about? Of course, I agree we landed men on the moon--it's probably the best documented event in human history.
However, I am not impressed by the Iraq documents that I have seen so far; an American document from the internet misrepresented, second and third-hand reports of connections between Iraq and bin Laden.
Now you got me fired up.
How is it possible that with with 60's technology we landed a man on the moon in under a decade and with the technology we have today NASA projects our next visit wont be within 20 years. Hogwash if you ask me.
...and one more thing I dont care what it takes, the Buffalo Bills will never win a Super Bowl so long as Im alive
Gary i was just using that one because i know you're a conspiriacy guy, and that's my favorite one.
I can't prove anything to you, i don't have the crystal ball that lily has, she knows that Bush lied, i don't believe that he did.
Anyway, warlike it doesn't matter if someone else is doing it, that doesn't make it right. Besides, contrary to what you hear from al jazeera it's not the Isreali's who are blowing up buildings in manhattan.
To me it's simple, if the UN weapons inspectors had been allowed to do the job, we wouldn't have thought saddam was a threat. In a post 9/11 world, if i was president, and my CIA told me he was dangerous, i would have done the same thing.
If you wouldn't, then you are not the man for the job.
... and whats gonna happen if and when we go into Iran and do not find any nuclear weapons. Are you going to sing the same tune that they werent a threat, they had no intention of developing nukes, that Bush lied etc. Iran is dangerously defiant regarding their nuke program. Iran has repeatedly threatened us with "harm and pain" and called for the complete annihilation of an ally, Israel. Sounds like a threat to me.
To take it to a base level, being the trailer trash that I am. If Im in a bar and some guy threatens me or a weaker friend with "harm and pain" Im gonna fucking hit that guy with a bar stool first ask questions later, and if it turns out that his friends inform me that he was just bluffing and that he always shoots his mouth off without acting...does that make me the bad guy. If so, so be it.
Yeah, I hear you, Rhino. Its not a matter of crying foul for being a girl. Thats not the thing. But thanks.
So Donk are you suggesting that is the way we should run things around here?
Rhino, exactly what role did Iraq play on 9/11? Do you have ANY facts to back that up other than Sadaam and Osama hung out a couple of times. Is there any definitive evidence Sadaam was involved?
Does that mean that anybody who was friendly with Atta at Embry Riddle when he was getting flying lessons is involved?
Which is it. Is it the WMD or the 9/11 link? I still do not have a clear picture of why 2300+ soldiers are dead.
What are you suggesting that Im suggesting Warlike?
Are you worried that Ill smack you with a bar stool if you get out of line?
You should be. Happy Hour... you know where Ill be
lily, that's the impression i got. take another look at your comments and tell me where mine are worse, or more insulting.
If you're friends at the boot are giving you heat because they only want to hear the things they want to hear, that's fine, block me out. I expect as much from most hippies, i thought you were tougher and smarther than that.
My Bad.
Ive got you now Benjamin. You fell for the oldest trick in the book. You have shown your ignorance. It is you my friend that has stopped making sense. Dress like Byrne you say? Huh? Well, Perhaps you are familiar with the Zoot Suit riots of the early '40's. Is what you are advocating. The systematic beating of Mexicans by the US Navy.
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
Rhino- First-yeah I get heat for it. So? When have I let that bother me Rhino? When? Some chick told everyone that we colluded to out her identity and now her life is in danger and its all because of the Lily Rhino Spy Team. Then I didn't protect the women from the trolls, etc. The nonsense goes on and on...you don't think I get disgusted with "my own"? But I figure we are each responsible for ourselves. I can only worry about what I think or do. Sometimes it changes, I have to sift through bias and lies and distortions to try to come to my conclusions just like everyone else. I don't claim to know everything.
But- why would I ever delete you? Or Donkey? I respond when I can, some of what you demand is very lengthy and time consuming but NEVER except in a joking way did I ever NOT appreciate what you guys had to say. I don't have to like it but I consider it, what else can I do? these are not cut and dry issues. I am not a Democrat or a Clinton apologist either which is another thing I'm tired of.
Sometimes Rhino I don't have a quick answer. Sometimes you make me think of something from a different side and I don't have a ready response and I have admitted that, I have to give it thought. Isn't that what you would expect, people to actually consider your comments? If you judge me for that or that makes me stupid, fine. The war is not an easy matter and I was not detached from 9-11, I was going to school right there, downtown. I never said let's kiss and make up with OBL.
War is not an easy issue, but we can and should as citizens consider the actions done in our name.
I hope your kidding about the whole "life in danger" thing. Seems a tad bit hysterical if ya ask me, but more importantly why wasnt I indicted in these alleged covert ops.
Donkey i was only indicted because lily and i are dating. Isn't it obvious by the way we fight?
Lily, you're a commie! But more importantly, i never said or implied that you were stupid................dummy;)
Donkey,
Rhino has been badmouthed all around as a scary troll to "watch out" for, and CIA Agent BitchLily helps him because did you ever notice that she's nasty and insensitive and won't defend other people? Who would want ME to defend them anyway?
Her blog is about how she was a major whistleblower "makes Erin Brockovich look like child's play" and so she says that Rhino got her identity and has now placed her in danger. I asked how she knew it was Rhino and she said that she tracked him. She tells everyone this, people have even emailed me copies. I asked what the hell Rhino had to do with me, but by then it had snowballed into a whole internet gossip thing of which I refuse to participate. So the bottom line is that this person has been telling people everywhere that I have put her in terrible danger, and has been making things up about me ever since. Sure, some people believe all this and don't come to my blog now. Oh well.
It started because I asked a very direct question that I guess made it sound like I was accusing her of being full of crap. I just asked a short direct question, thats all it takes you know to be a "troll". Just like every time Blogger doesn't work its a big spy conspiracy. I have even been accused of causing that too.
Thats the basic thing, Donkeyhue. Its actually kind of sad and, well, pathetic. Hippies have a catch 22- if we question we are aggressive and trollish, if we let delusions run unchallenged then we hurt our own credibility.
Also donkey, lily digs me because i rarely wear any underwear, and when i do it's usually something unusual.
Oh and because i shave my head.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11927856
Bush Lied.
Your kidding right?
No, his pants are on fire.He lied to sell a war, get over it. He's not the first President to lie and he won't be the last.
Look..I am sick of arguing about why we went into Iraq..we are there..If a group can pull enough info together to impeach the Shrub over it..more power to em..I am moving on. I only have so much time and energy to devote to politics and I feel its wasted on fighting about the why we went in there.
If you expect an apology from anyone your not going to get it. The Shrub has done what during his administration? Started a war, removed the teeth from the EPA and put our ass's so far in debt our childrens children will be paying it off for decades to come..unless of course they cut the living shit out of programs designed to help those that can not help themselves..i.e., medicare,welfare and social security...the big three. Or they raise taxes..which of these two options is less likely to hurt the repubes in an election year??? That is how they will figure it out and attempt to fix our fiscal irresponsiblity which is so disgusting even you repube lovers have to admit that...at least i think you do..I dont know anymore.
Nothing is black and white..nothing. Its not democraps against the repubes anymore..its people worried about mortgaging our ass to the hilt for this war...a war we were told was won almost three years ago. The Shrub's administration seriously underestimated what it took to set an Iraqi government up and put them in power. The Iraqi's have held ONE session of their government..and it didn't last an hour I believe.
The Democraps are hoping that Fitz will deliver us from evil..aka indict many of those currently in power..its going to take at least a year or more for that to happen, if ever..meanwhile..we have another election on the horizon.
I am simply tired of the Shrubs brand of administering to our needs. He doesn't give a rat's ass about anything but corporate america...if you don't believe me..so be it..he doesn't have a religious bone in his body..and he panders to the religious zealots as his political base, which I find very disgusting.
Middle America is disappearing as we type..its becoming a nation of have and have nots. Jobs are going outside the US at a faster rate than any time in our history. Global warming is a real threat and anyone that says different is friggin nuts and has their head in the sand.
I want a compassionate administration..thats all i want..I want people in power that listen to others and not just themselves. I want my son to be able to breathe 20 years from now without the help of a respirator. I want the ground water which WE ALL depend on..to be pure and free of toxins. I want the rest of the globe to respect us as they once did as a leader of the free world.
The cold war ended many moons ago..the Shrub has single-handidly started it all up again. This can not be a good thing..by any stretch of the imagination.
I am just tired..sick and tired of worrying..and the Shrub does nothing to make me feel warm and fuzzy. Not about terrorism, healthcare, social security, the environment, and god knows what else I have forgotten to name. I want to know what he has done that is positive..I want someone that supports him to tell me what he has done that I can say is a good, positive action..for me, the US and the rest of the earth as a whole.
jesus christ in a thong..that was a long winded comment..I apologize..
No problem dusty, you're always welcome to rant about the shrub over here. By the way, do you know the band BUSH? pretty good i think.
That was good Dusty. Straight from the heart. Real. Authentic.
I like the blues Rhino. Clapton, Bonamassa,Buddy Guy..
Blues, that's cool. I like almost everything.
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