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I was just reading another blog...yes, I can read. Anyway, they were bashing Bush for getting us involved in matters that in their opinion don't concern the U.S.A. and they were implying that we are "spread out & thin" in a world that is constantly growing. It got me thinking that perhaps some of our liberal friends have a point but then I realized that most of them do not understand what Isolationism is all about...Do they know that history doesn't paint a pretty picture of what it led to; what happened to our economy (i.e. the not so great depression could happen again)... During the period of Isolationism in America, the main bullet point behind this Republican concept was an America that would reap the benefits without the obligation...meaning we'd still "be" and exist in the world as an entity but without any real responsibility to help out in times of crisis. We would say, "sorry" whenever there was a natural disaster. If there was a country attacked, again we'd say, "not our problem but good luck". And for being proactive and keeping us away from this type of thinking, the Dems' have painted our president as some sort of inbred war mongerer? Do liberals and mid-road republicans realize that if they got their wish and we took up an approach of isolationism, that we would not get involved if Israel was attacked by Iran or Europe by a foreign power? Also, any real idea to isolate today would have to include a closed door policy (which is contrary to the original standards of the theory) to ensure that we can remain impregnable against terrorist attacks (remaining true to the more important standard in the Isolationist theory)...this means the words on the Statue of Liberty (which most libs think are part of the constitution, i.e. bring us your tired, your poor, your starving, your huddled masses...) would become obsolete. We could no longer allow immigration to continue per the status quo. In a world of Isolationism, we would rely on a contingent force of powerful countries to rule and dictate the law. We would never make allies as we would have a responsibility to them...Today this would mean the U.N. and if you feel like I do, then you know they aren't up to the task. Look at how they have handled previous situations where they were the primary troops sent in to stabilize a region. An example would be in Rwanda, where they made a bad situation worse, and the French, that's right the French had to be called in to handle the situation. In theory, a world that could run this way would be great for the U.S.A. as we are more self sufficient than most any country. But facts & history show that the world needs us more than we need them...I'm grateful that we have had presidents who did for the world what only they could do. As a citizen of the world, I am glad that George Bush (the supposed idiot, thief, liar,etc.,etc,) isn't going the cowards route and hiding behind his great nation the way a large minority of his constituents feel he should...
29 comments:
the truth is fly, isolationism is impossible. The world is shrinking, the economies of the developed world are all dependent on each other. Also, as i was saying to a friend this morning (before i hung up on him) we have an enemy out there that depends on the poor, uneducated masses who can be easily manipulated. the only real way to defeat the enemy that we're fighting is to free it's army from ignorance.
Tell me the last time you heard about a suicide bomber who was educated and wealthy? Or forget wealthy, how about a homeowner? spreading democracy makes the world safer for all of us, that's why i support our troops, and their mission.
I agree with you...but only half heartedly. Some of the terrorists have been highly educated. Look at the pilot of the Penn. 9/11 plane. He was no idiot...college educated...unfortuantely he probably also received a scary dose of hatred mixed in with that education. At one point I was thinking Iran would be one of the more progressive nations in the Middle East because their constant wars had killed so many of the old regimes that it left a larger portion of the population a young & untainted...well that hasn't happened and apparently the youth in Iran were and are being taught the same hatred of everything western...at the same time more needs to be done to find a higher ground. Maybe we will be attacked by an alien species which will in turn force us to come together as the good Lennon once said...
Lets see last time I heard about an educated and wealthy suicide bomber, hmmm I dont know just off the top of my head maybe Mohammed Atta, who by all accounts was raised in a comfortable envoiroment and had an Architecture degree from Cairo University.
Well when was the last time you heard of 2 of them?
Just kidding, of course there are exceptions, but for the most part that's not the case. We can't protect ourselves by isolation, or by reaction. You and your mancrush pat buchanan think we shouldn't be fighting over there, I would like to know how you propose to protect us then? maybe we can pray to allah, but somehow i don't think that's gonna help. Or maybe you think we should ask the U.N. to help? No? not that either? well then donk, what do you propose? should we kick their asses and then leave to let the bad guys take over again? what do we do?
My answer is we spread democracy, we have done it before when people said we couldn't, we'll do it again. It will take a long time, people will die, but in the long run it will be worth it. If you have a better idea, i'd like to hear it.
yes, the alien solution. It worked for us in alien vs predator, but wouldn't john kerry think we were rushing to war?
Are you proposing we establish some sort of socialist state to provide free homes and free education for the bad guys. In you infinite wisdom, that would rid them of their hatred of us. Im not sure if your aware that this isnt some new found hatred, maybe perhaps you heard of a little incident called the Crusades. Cant blame that one on the Great Devil America. Would you suggest democracy in Saudi Arabia? You want to hand the keys to the aslyum to the inmates, and I dont see how thats our responsibility or how that makes the world any safer. I dont care what system of gov't these maniacs have there will always be zealots willing to die for their cause. Our job is to hunt down and kill terrorists, not give them some imperialistic home makeover.
My response is partly explained in my new post, but i'm not suggesting socialism, i'm suggesting democracy, and freedom. These are things worth fighting for, we know that because we have them, these people need to be shown the way. Are you forgetting that we have done this before? we brought about a change in japan that is nothing short of miraculous. Do you forget your history lessons, or are you reading the times again? these people believed the emporer was a god! they lived in a caste system for thousands of years! Now tell me everyone back then thought we would see this change in such a short amount of time! Bulls**t, the doubters were always there, and you are still around now.
Here's my point donkey.
Your long term answer is lets send a small fighting force into the middle east to root out 4 terrorists at a time and kill them. of course they'll have no chance of success since the poor uneducated oppressed people will be signing up to kill America and Isreal by the truckload. But put your head back in the sand if you want.
My answer is to change their way of life. to bring democracy and freedom to them. Once democracy takes hold, and the people prosper, they will reject the ways of terrorism. It won't happen overnight, like i said in my original comments, but it is worth whatever time it takes.
Please tell me you have something more than just your silly name calling. Please tell me your argument doesn't hinge on calling me a retard. If i have misrepresented your idea, please by all means, correct me, if not, then shut up. stupit
and stop being so sensitive..........fag not that there's anything wrong with that
I didnt suggest a military strategy, but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth. What Im saying is that Democracy is not the end all be all cure. Theres is Democracy NOW in Iraq in case you havent heard. Hitler was ELECTED to office. Hamas has won a majority in the Palestinian parliament. I will call you a retard again because you are looking at this in a very simpleton way. Yay we have Democracy lets hug America. And what the hell does prosperity have to do with anything OBL was raised in a millionaire lifestyle...why didnt he reject the ideas of terrorism. I wish it was as simple as you think it is.
Retard!!!
Ok donkey, so you haven't suggested a militry solution, you haven't suggested a political solution, you haven't suggested anything i guess. So what are you saying? oh nothing really, that's why i don't listen to you.
Rhino do you really think that is going to work? We are going to teach them how to live? Democracy is the way? You are crazy. These people will not convert to our ways.
Religion is the divider that has been there and will be in that region forever.
Cut their balls off and get out of there. We WILL have to deal with them again;history dictates that we will-and we'll have to croos that bridge when it comes.........The only other alternative is to wipe them out COMPLETELY!!
Warlike, i couldn't disagree more. Of course religion is a problem, but that doesn't mean we can't live peacefully with them. We don't have any problems with Turkey, in fact they are an ally. Turkey is a muslim country. What is the difference? let me tell you so you don't have to look it up. Turkey is a free democratic society. It won't be easy, it won't happen overnight, but i believe it's the best way. the other way is wiping them off the earth completely.
Of course your right Rhino because democracies have never waged war with other democracies? Arent Pakistan and India both Federal Republics?
Yes Federal Republics, don't always work...Banana Republic always good but expensive for T-shirts.
I vote for the wipeage. Every time we step on a kneck in that region and they become allies-the very same "allies" turn around and shit on us-using our weapons.
Yes we can subdue them for a few years and then their son's grow balls and start calling us "infidels" again.
When are we going to learn?
It's not much different than us calling them "camel jockeys" and questioning their traditions...I know what you are saying though as the west has been at war with this region for like 1000 years. But maybe that's because we haven't tried other options. We have never tried to implement a system of government (we have tried implementing an actual government but not a system of government) and letting them rule it themselves. Perhaps it won't work but neither has anything else including stepping on their throats.
There lies the problem. #1 They don't want to be told what or how to do things. and #2 They don't know what or how to do their own thing.
All they know is war!! They can't even handle peace-its like what do we do AkBar?
So heres the thing guys, and this is what i'm trying to say.
warlike says we should just wipe them out. that's an idea. not one i agree with, but at least he's saying something. Other than that, i think what we're doing is the best course. it's not perfect, yes democracies do war against each other. no it's not fool proof, it could back fire on us. But i will ask again. What are the alternatives? what solution does donkey suggest? what strategy do we go with? Anyone can insult the current course, i can pick apart anything if i want to, but what is your alternative???? we can't level the region, because we need the oil. so what should we be doing? We can't stick our head in the sand.
Do you know that Ostiches don't stick their head in the sand because they are bashful...It has something to do with the whole warm blooded/cold blodded thing; I think...anyway, I wonder what other things that I learned from cartoons are untrue? Next someone will tell me that a duck can't have his bill blown off and subsequently reattach it on his own...Sheesh, the things we don't understand, eh? Maybe I was wrong, total isolation is the only way!
Once again I will spell it out for the Rhino. I believe in less nation building more terrorist killing. Is that so incredibly hard for you to grasp. In a perfect world of course the best option involved for everybody is a free Democracy, but it does not solve ANYTHING. Just like this past summer you argued that the Iraqi Constitution would solve all, now youre stuck on the talking point that DEMOCRACY will. You were wrong then and you are wrong now. Im happy for them if they embrace democracy and wish them the best but once again it does not solve ANYTHING. There will still be bad guys that want to kill us.
i NEVER argued that a constitution would solve everything. I have ALWAYS argued that democracy and freedom will solve a lot of the problems. i NEVER said it would solve EVERYTHING. Now donkey i ask you, in a nation of 25 million people, in a region of hundreds of millions, how should we accomplish the terrorist killing without any allies? If we don't build a government and a democracy there, and the bad guys take over again, through brutality and violence, how will we accomplish our goal of killing terrorists? i know, lets just kill them, that should be easy, since we know where they are, we'll just drop a bomb there..... oh we don't know where they are? oh well we will when they blow up another building in NYC! Why don't you read the other posts, i'm tired of arguing with you about nothing. and when i say nothing, i mean your ideas.
Question: how should we improve the economy
Donkey answer: lets give everyone a job
Q: how?
DA: lets give everyone a job
ok, ummm well.....
Q: how should we deal with the terrorists
DA: lets kill the terrorists
Q: how?
DA: lets kill the terrorists
oh, well thanks for that then, but while we're killing them and trying to create a long term solution why don't you shut up and stop insulting the mannner in which we're doing it unless you actually have an IDEA
and if you don't get that, why don't you read my post with the kissinger quote, because that's what i'm saying.
RECAP
Rhino thinks we should spend resources spreading our idealogy because it makes people like us. I believe we should be focusing on killing the bad guys
Rhino believes in his fairy tale land that wealthy educated people are not terrorists only to be proven wrong with Mohammed Atta and countless others
Rhino believes that democracies make the world an inherently safer place only to be proven wrong with Adolf Hitler and countless others
Seriously I wish you were right that spreading democracy throughout the world would end terrorism and all wars as you say it will but it wont and you are making yourself seem like an idjit by suggesting so. Is that really all you got...Democracy will save us Democracy will save us. You are a fool to believe so and ignorant of the reason we are there in first place.
But keep trying keep putting words in my mouth and keep being the real ass on the Aurora.
EE-Aw
And when did you change positions and become a Democrat
"in a region of hundreds of millions, how should we accomplish the terrorist killing without any allies? If we don't build a government and a democracy there, and the bad guys take over again, through brutality and violence, how will we accomplish our goal of killing terrorists?"
So now you suggest we build a coalition or maybe seek UN approval? Have ye so little faith in our military. Its shocking to me that you cant see the fallacy of your argument. I am curious to hear what countries are next on your list of our democratization? Are any countries exempt? Is global democracization your ultimate goal? Ask Ben Shapiro and get back to me
EE-Aw
so once again donkey has no suggestions, just complaints. Once again i say to donkey how will you accomplish your goal of killing bad guys and his answer is :
"I believe we should be focusing on killing the bad guys"
Well Donkey, that's nice. No i don't believe we need the U.N. nor do i want their help. But when did YOU become a democrat. You have no ideas of your own, but you say what we're doing now is no good. We are conducting operations in Iraq, we are building a new government there. We are on the right course. Your latest post on hamas is proof that we can't afford to leave.
I guess you are a fan of the Carter doctrine which is lets put our man in charge (shah of Iran) then lets split when he's struggling against religious zealots. Yeah that's a good idea, probably will work.
So what i mean when i say allies, is the Iraqi's themselves. or are you still reading the ny times and believe that the iraqi's don't want us there?
If you don't support the mission, that's fine. But unless you have a better idea, shut the F up! And if you do have a better idea, please it's 2 days now i'm asking please tell me your idea.
Im beginning to think you arent as smart as you think you are. You post 2 quotes and say thats what youre saying and say I have no original ideas? That doesnt make sense. Just because you cant beat me in a debate, dont try to skew my points to make yourself look less stupid. Ok genius and whats your suggestion again? Democracy? Do you even know what that means. Oh yeah we need to stop the poverty too right? That will stop terrorism right. Better idea? Im still waiting for you suggest even one. My stance is clear. Less nation building More bad guy killing (is that so hard? you often cite Japan, I dont recall instituting regime change BEFORE dropping the bomb)
nice slogan, next you can use the Bush lied slogan. So how do you propose we capture and or kill these bad guys in a hostile country run by a terrorist regime? So we don't build the nation, the bad guys take over the country, and we will do what?
You have your simplistic little sayings, but no idea how to implement any plans, or how to accomplish your "original ideas" or killing bad guys. I have the ideas, but can not articulate them as well as the more erudite people whom i quoted. It takes me 20 comments to say what they can say in one article. It takes you 20 comments to say ..... nothing.
Was the last comment a veiled effort to throw in the towel without losing face, if so I will accept your offer of surrender for it is now apparent that you not only dont understand what your saying but you no longer have any conviction in your argument. Well fought Rhino, maybe youll have better luck debating high schoolers on The Coalition For A Republican Free America.
Isolationism vs. Imperialism is a false dichotomy.
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