What to do with 12 million illegal immigrants is a perplexing question. They come here for financial reasons. Officially and legally they should not be here at all. Unofficially we look the other way because they provide cheap labor for corporations. Legally one can't even have a job in the US without proof of either citizenship or legal residence. If this were strictly enforced the illegals would be unable to find jobs. This has not and will not happen, for reasons that are clear upon examination.
Our society has always looked the other way, condemning the immigrants for breaking the law, while, with a wink and a nod, hiring them. There are undoubted economic benefits behind illegal immigration, for them and for the American economy.
We cannot simply deport 12 million people, families with children. Apart from the economic problems it would cause, it would be inhumane and if actually carried out would be inconsistent with basic American and human values. (I realize that this is may be your position, but again it will not happen.)
So, what to do? We can handle 12 million illegals, indeed probably benefit from them, but two or three times that number would be detrimental. Some sort of path to citizenship for those here, combined with stricter security at the border, including a wall (which is being built, I believe.) The only other approach would be to continue the look-the-other-way, wink-and-nod approach. These are the two realistic options that I can see, and I suppose one could make a case for both.
Some program like this would, I think, be the most practical and humane approach. It would also remove this as a political issue, which may doom it.
For once I agree with you gary. We can't just send them all back. That is just crazy. The US has not done a good job in enforcing illegal immigration. All I know is that if they are here they should be paying taxes. It is a very complex issue and I don't know what to do but I know we can't just kick them all out.
I'm not an expert but I think they do pay taxes. If they have a job they have to file a tax return, don't they? I say try to keep the number of illegal immigrants down to manageable levels at least, perhaps require better proof of citizenship or residence for jobs to discourage them, and a path to citizenship for some.
well i know one thing for sure, gary is certainly no expert.
There is a reason why we have 20 million illegals (12 million is bullshit)and it has to do with one of the few big mistakes that Reagan made.
in the 80's we had 2-3 million illegals and Reagan gave them amnesty because what option did we have?
Question: What happens when you reward bad behavior? or good behavior for that matter?
Answer: You get more of it.
So build a wall and claim that you're going to enforce the law more and it won't matter because even if you follow through the reward is too great to people who have been betrayed by their own countrymen, by their own government, who have no education,no job,no future,etc.
You want the answer of what to do? You already know.
You have to enforce the law at the corporate level. remove the incentive.
and here's the angle that the libs never look at by the way. Think about how we screw over mexicans by taking in their disenfranchised.
Who's left there to affect change? Who's left there to protest? To force out the corrupt government? To go to tea parties? etc.?
Ask yourself how is it possible that mexico has been so poor and corrupt for so long? Are mexicans inferior to Americans intellectually? Physically?
Enforcing the law at the corporate level? I mentioned that actually, but I also stated why I do not believe it will happen. The present system works for the corporations, and their servants in the Congress, of both parties.
Personally, I do not see illegal immigration as that big a problem. There are economic benefits. The only practical goal is to keep it down to manageable levels. Whether 12 or 20 million one could argue that the system works, although hypocritically of course.
The problem with tightening work restrictions, and I'm not against it, is precisely that it would work. A more honest (and legal) approach might be a guest worker "bracero" program.
gary and bill oreilly both want a guest worker program.
personally i disagree with former president Bush. I don't think there are any jobs that Americans won't do.
However i do agree that the big corporations are the beneficiaries of illegal immigration and big business and big government have always been on the same team.
I didn't say it would happen, i said it would work. The other side of that is getting rid of the minimum wage laws. Then large corporations could hire American workers for the same wage as the illegal aliens. This would work for everyone. More Americans would be employed, corporations could keep costs down, consumer prices wouldn't be affected,illegal aliens would lose the incentive to come here, the Mexican government would be forced to deal with the intolerable conditions for the poor people in their country...etc..etc...
On the flip side, if you give Amnesty to the illegals here, i don't care how big you build the wall or how many policemen you put on the border, we will be even more inundated with illegals overnight.
Getting rid of the minimum wage law will be done over the dead bodies of every liberal and moderate in the Congress. Really, lowering the wages of American workers is the answer? Most illegals are probably earning minimum wage or more now.
No the libs won't get rid of minimum wage because they don't care about poor people, especially minorities. They only care about perception because perception gets the votes.
minorities and under educated people are the most vulnerable and would benefit the most by eliminating the minimum wage laws.
enforcement of current immigration laws would also benefit this group of American citizens.
The libs won't do it because then they would lose a big chunk of their constituency. The people who depend on government to take care of them vote for people who promise to give them the most not the people who promise to help them help themselves.
Most illegals are probably earning minimum wage? i doubt it but if that's true then there's another reason to hire them instead of American workers.
Payroll taxes? Social Security taxes? Health Insurance benefits? 401k administration and benefits? Union avoidance? All of the above?
If there was no financial benefit these companies would hire Americans.
Whenever conservatives talk about "helping" minorities and poor people (usually by ending the minimum wage or weakening labor unions) I think about all the fine work Colonel Sanders did to help chickens.
10 comments:
What to do with 12 million illegal immigrants is a perplexing question. They come here for financial reasons. Officially and legally they should not be here at all. Unofficially we look the other way because they provide cheap labor for corporations. Legally one can't even have a job in the US without proof of either citizenship or legal residence. If this were strictly enforced the illegals would be unable to find jobs. This has not and will not happen, for reasons that are clear upon examination.
Our society has always looked the other way, condemning the immigrants for breaking the law, while, with a wink and a nod, hiring them. There are undoubted economic benefits behind illegal immigration, for them and for the American economy.
We cannot simply deport 12 million people, families with children. Apart from the economic problems it would cause, it would be inhumane and if actually carried out would be inconsistent with basic American and human values. (I realize that this is may be your position, but again it will not happen.)
So, what to do? We can handle 12 million illegals, indeed probably benefit from them, but two or three times that number would be detrimental. Some sort of path to citizenship for those here, combined with stricter security at the border, including a wall (which is being built, I believe.) The only other approach would be to continue the look-the-other-way, wink-and-nod approach. These are the two realistic options that I can see, and I suppose one could make a case for both.
Some program like this would, I think, be the most practical and humane approach. It would also remove this as a political issue, which may doom it.
I am interested in your thoughts on this matter.
For once I agree with you gary. We can't just send them all back. That is just crazy. The US has not done a good job in enforcing illegal immigration. All I know is that if they are here they should be paying taxes. It is a very complex issue and I don't know what to do but I know we can't just kick them all out.
I'm not an expert but I think they do pay taxes. If they have a job they have to file a tax return, don't they? I say try to keep the number of illegal immigrants down to manageable levels at least, perhaps require better proof of citizenship or residence for jobs to discourage them, and a path to citizenship for some.
well i know one thing for sure, gary is certainly no expert.
There is a reason why we have 20 million illegals (12 million is bullshit)and it has to do with one of the few big mistakes that Reagan made.
in the 80's we had 2-3 million illegals and Reagan gave them amnesty because what option did we have?
Question: What happens when you reward bad behavior? or good behavior for that matter?
Answer: You get more of it.
So build a wall and claim that you're going to enforce the law more and it won't matter because even if you follow through the reward is too great to people who have been betrayed by their own countrymen, by their own government, who have no education,no job,no future,etc.
You want the answer of what to do? You already know.
You have to enforce the law at the corporate level. remove the incentive.
and here's the angle that the libs never look at by the way. Think about how we screw over mexicans by taking in their disenfranchised.
Who's left there to affect change? Who's left there to protest? To force out the corrupt government? To go to tea parties? etc.?
Ask yourself how is it possible that mexico has been so poor and corrupt for so long? Are mexicans inferior to Americans intellectually? Physically?
Mexicans don't want liberty? education? opportunity? etc?
No movement can happen without the ground troops.
Enforcing the law at the corporate level? I mentioned that actually, but I also stated why I do not believe it will happen. The present system works for the corporations, and their servants in the Congress, of both parties.
Personally, I do not see illegal immigration as that big a problem. There are economic benefits. The only practical goal is to keep it down to manageable levels. Whether 12 or 20 million one could argue that the system works, although hypocritically of course.
The problem with tightening work restrictions, and I'm not against it, is precisely that it would work. A more honest (and legal) approach might be a guest worker "bracero" program.
gary and bill oreilly both want a guest worker program.
personally i disagree with former president Bush. I don't think there are any jobs that Americans won't do.
However i do agree that the big corporations are the beneficiaries of illegal immigration and big business and big government have always been on the same team.
I didn't say it would happen, i said it would work. The other side of that is getting rid of the minimum wage laws. Then large corporations could hire American workers for the same wage as the illegal aliens. This would work for everyone. More Americans would be employed, corporations could keep costs down, consumer prices wouldn't be affected,illegal aliens would lose the incentive to come here, the Mexican government would be forced to deal with the intolerable conditions for the poor people in their country...etc..etc...
On the flip side, if you give Amnesty to the illegals here, i don't care how big you build the wall or how many policemen you put on the border, we will be even more inundated with illegals overnight.
Getting rid of the minimum wage law will be done over the dead bodies of every liberal and moderate in the Congress. Really, lowering the wages of American workers is the answer? Most illegals are probably earning minimum wage or more now.
It ain't going to happen.
Once again i'll explain.
No the libs won't get rid of minimum wage because they don't care about poor people, especially minorities. They only care about perception because perception gets the votes.
minorities and under educated people are the most vulnerable and would benefit the most by eliminating the minimum wage laws.
enforcement of current immigration laws would also benefit this group of American citizens.
The libs won't do it because then they would lose a big chunk of their constituency. The people who depend on government to take care of them vote for people who promise to give them the most not the people who promise to help them help themselves.
Most illegals are probably earning minimum wage? i doubt it but if that's true then there's another reason to hire them instead of American workers.
Payroll taxes?
Social Security taxes?
Health Insurance benefits?
401k administration and benefits?
Union avoidance?
All of the above?
If there was no financial benefit these companies would hire Americans.
Whenever conservatives talk about "helping" minorities and poor people (usually by ending the minimum wage or weakening labor unions) I think about all the fine work Colonel Sanders did to help chickens.
as usual a logical argument escapes gary.
well i can't say i'm surprised.
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