What is the greatest mystery in American history? Rattle off a few answers. I bet you won't think of mine...
Here is my nominee for biggest mystery: the decline and fall of public school education. Don't agree? Give me a minute and I'll convince you.
19 comments:
Why are Americans so stupid? That's a good question. Why are you stupid? Did you go to public school? I did and I'm not stupid. I must admit though that the average American is stupid (and half of them by definition are stupider than that).
More time spent on basics is a good idea. Not so sure about phonics. English is one of the least phonetic languages. But then my knowledge of teaching reading is limited to teaching one child to read, with a little phonics mixed in with a lot of "sight word" teaching. Worked pretty well, she was reading at least fourth grade level before starting Kindergarten.
i put the blame on too much tv and not enough reading.
study after study has shown that we don't learn reading comprehension via phonics. there are too many exceptions to the rules in the english language to make phonics a worthwhile investment of a learner's time.
Bust the teachers union, install a pay system based on results. Fix't.
plus i think there should be MUCH higher standards for teacher certification, in addition to mandatory continuing education, regular and meaningful performance evaluations and tough recertification requirements.
also, teaching shouldn't be the fall-back position for people who don't know what to do with their lives when they get out of college. it shouldn't be the college graduate's equivalent of a job with the postal service or the MTA.
and finally, in order to attract teacher candidates capable of far higher performance and adherence to more strict standards, the pay scale MUST increase dramatically and provide a respectable wage commensurate with the quality of the candidate and the importance of the job to the students, the families and the nation as a whole!
our country has historically provided a quality education to all. it's not like that any more. the quality of the public school system is spotty at best. something has to be done.
anita i want to believe that most teachers go into teaching because they want to teach young people not because they want to get a good pension and have summers off. I know MANY public school teachers and i believe this is the case.
As to the compensation, i believe they're overpaid and have had many arguments over this. I have no problem with them being overpaid but it's still the case.
Donkey said it best. Bust the teachers unions and you go a long way to solving the problem. there are too many administrators and too many bad teachers who are protected by tenure. Take that away and you're halfway home.
This may be a first. Although we have differing thoughts on how best to fix the problem its refreshing to see you two come around and that we can all at least agree that there is a problem, that we all agree that the liberal system of education and the policies of the Democratic party have failed our children. I'm proud of you two, only eleven more steps to go.
teachers are overpaid? how so and to what extent? in new york state the average salary for a teacher is plus or minus 40K, with starting salaries for people who have earned masters degrees in the low 30's. these are the people to whom you entrust your childrens' education and with salaries like that, the so-called 'cream of the crop' necessarily will go into much more high-paying fields in order to maintain a middle-class lifestyle, be able to raise his or her own family and save money for college, etc. by no paying teachers a wage commensurate with their role in society (which is good) and their level of education (which is high as well) is pennywise and pound foolish. and this has absolutely nothing to do with unions versus non-unions. it's common sense.
if you think teachers are overpaid then you should stop complaining about the decline and fall of public school education.
anita, assuming your numbers are correct(i don't think so) then i will says that teachers in long island are overpaid.
i know MANY teachers here. most of them have been teaching for ten years or more. ALL of them make close to or over 100k. they work only about 185 days a year and they only work for 7 hours a day.
I'm not saying they're not important. I'm not saying they don't do a good job.
Just my opinion. They're overpaid. Again, i don't have a problem with this. In fact i'd pay them more if we could cut down on the # of useless admin. people that actually do NOTHING. I also would eliminate tenure. It's just plain wrong.
However as donkey said i'm proud of both of you for finally admitting that the federal government sucks at running the education department.
I wonder how they'd do with healthcare?????.....hmmmmm.....
I don't recall saying anything about the Federal government, the Democratic Party or unions.
the "average" salary for an experienced teacher in new york state is approximately $55K. the "average" starting salary for a teacher is about $35K.
the higher salaries downstate, on long island and in westchester, drive the average up significantly and teachers in the hudson valley and upstate average much less.
and yes, i absolutely believe there is a critical role for the federal government in ensuring fair, quality and equal educational opportunities for all young people regardless of their circumstances.
the unions are definitely PART of the problem and need to be revamped, but they are not THE ONLY problem. and i certainly do NOT think vouchers are the answer. they will weaken the system we already have.
I've never understood why many conservatives want vouchers. They like the private sector, I get that. Giving public money to the private sector doesn't seem like something conservatives should like. With money comes control, right? Seems to me I've heard that argument here recently. Also many private schools are run by crazy religious people. Not counting of course the private schools for the kids of rich people.
First of all. "Public Money"? What the fuck is public money? You mean the 5 figures i pay in property taxes that is mostly eaten up by the school district? That's "public money"?
Well, in my case that means i can send my children to one of the best schools in the state. Small classes, highly qualified teachers. almost no worries about crime and drugs. all of the sports and music and art programs etc.
Poor people though. Inner city parents who want to give their kids this same kind of advantage. They're fucked. They can't afford the 5 figure tax school districts. They live in the hoods where they have to worry and the teachers are not qualified. Vouchers would allow them to send their kids to a better school.
There is no logical argument against vouchers. NONE. It's all politics and caving to the teachers unions and thats it.
gary's daughter can't have the same advantages that my children have? boo hoo. it's not my fault her father is too stupid to fight to get her into a better school. So when her college options include the barbazon school for makeup application and hair styling, and the Scores pole dancing academy she can thank the public school system and the democrat party that works directly for the teachers unions.
It must be nice to have all the answers. Public money, yes I mean our tax money.
No logical argument against vouchers? I thought the government money = government control argument was logical. The argument that it would take money away from public schools is logical unless we raise taxes. How about improving public schools?
We have some fairly good public schools out here in California. The Palo Alto schools are very nice with computer labs and all kinds of programs. Other areas have bad schools without enough books, and are falling apart etc. The reason for the differences is obvious enough: money. Wealthier areas have better schools. But, I forget, you've diagnosed the problem: it's the unions.
Do you see EVERYTHING through the same narrow, ideological prism? One thing I have noticed about you is that it's all black and white, and you are 100% sure that you are 100% right all the time. Obviously I don't think that you're 100% right, but I don't think I'm 100% right either.
I am not 100% opposed to vouchers, it would depend on the details of the program. It shouldn't result in public schools getting less money. It should help the poor more than the rich, who do not need the help. In other words it should be progressive. Some people want to give everyone a $3000 voucher. I don't think Bill Gates needs it for his children's education at a private school. Yes he pays taxes too but we really don't get to say where our share of the tax money should go. People without children still have to pay for public education, pacifists have to pay for the military, and rich people shouldn't get vouchers.
In some cases vouchers have actually helped the rich more than the poor. The amount isn't enough to pay for a year at a private school, the poor still can't afford it, and the rich get a discount coupon off their pricy private school. But structure a voucher program to address some of these concerns and I might support it.
your argument isn't logical and in fact i still don't understand it.
government $ = government control? Isn't that what we have now? The government takes my money and controls what school i can send my kid to? Give me a voucher so i can have the control and then you have something different.
what difference does it make if some rich people get an advantage too? Are you so bitter that you would rather your child suffer so that the rich guy doesn't get a 3k tax break? Really?
That's why you'll always work for someone like me and your income will be what i decide it will be. That in fact is one of the main differences between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives want to pull the poor people up, liberals want to pull the rich people down.
Anyway
I don't want to go into this too much more because clearly you're not figuring this out so let me recap the main point.
The U.S. spends more $ per pupil than any other country in the world and yet our students are failing. You think the problem is we need give MORE $ to the poor schools? Like the Washington D.C. schools who spend the most per pupil than any other school system in the country? I'll give you 1 guess how that's working out.
Just face it gary you're wrong.I'm right. I would think you'd be used to it by now.
OK, so you don't think the government would tell those private schools what they can and cannot teach. Just like they wouldn't tell GM how to make cars I guess. Really? Since when do you trust government.
But we could have a voucher program without giving Bill Gates a voucher. What's the problem with that? His taxes help pay for food stamps but we don't give him food stamps. Why should he get a voucher? Wouldn't it save money to means test the vouchers?
And I would never work for someone like you.
Ive worked for some real assholes in my life, but never let personal grievances get in the way of me making a living. Thats one of the few benefits of growing up poor... you know whats its like to go hungry and once able as a man you do everything in your power to ensure you dont feel that way again.
Its why Ive held a steady job for every day of my life since I was seventeen and never been fired, laid-off or unemployed. Its why the welfare systeme fails, there is no stick only a carrot every month. No motivation, only tit.
I know you made that last comment flippantly but it says alot about your character and why I dont weep for 99% of the unemployed in this country. I dont know where you live but I will guarantee you that I could move there tommorow and be working in less than a week. I have no degree I have no skills per se and I would have a job in under a week. Guaranteed. Unless California is full of Rhinos, whats your excuse?
I fucking hate lazy people. Yeah lazy. Too proud to flip burgers? Mopping floors beneat you figuratively and literally?
Get a job for fucks sake and stop worrying about my money and go about getting your own. Tax the rich is not a solution its a resentment based on inadecuacy.
Yes, it was flippant and yes it was responding to your comment. I don't know your economic situation (except that you have a job) and I don't really care. I don't know if I was making more or less than you in my last job and I don't care. And believe me I know about growing up poor.
And since you don't have an answer to my questions and comments about vouchers I will assume you have none to offer.
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